Thank you all for joining the very first
Deverem of the day.
9am is extremely early for everyone who's out late last night.
Thank you especially for showing up.
We're going to get started about three minutes.
My name is Sean Bohan.
I work for the Linux Foundation.
This is not a Linux Foundation Deverem.
This is the digital wallets and verifiable credentials Deverem at
Boston.
I'm incredibly honored.
That's be careful.
I like to tap.
I can't do that with a mic on.
I'm incredibly honored that I got to be the Deverem Manager for this.
I got to work with the amazing presenters who are going to be here today.
These are not Linux Foundation or open wallet Foundation projects, but they are part of
the identity ecosystem which we're a part of and we're just absolutely psyched that these
folks are going to be here and share their knowledge.
Some of them are still on their way.
I've gotten a couple of text messages.
I'm in a cab.
I've got the first 30 minutes.
But it's happened to me too.
But before we start, so today, I'm just going to do a welcome super high-level
brought-over view of the Open Wallet Foundation.
The next team from net company is going to talk about utilizing EUDI Wallet
ecosystems in your legacy systems.
At 10 o'clock, we need disposable digital identities for a more secure and resilient
digital society.
And that is Rob Lorna Friedger and Andrea from 4th bomb slash Dine.
After that, we have Jesse, our current standards enough towards verifiable credentials
with expressive zero knowledge query.
After that, Amir is going to join us.
He's going to talk about Dark Five, zero knowledge cryptography for anonymous unsensitive
organizations.
Then, at 1130, trust change, trustworthy, decentralized public key infrastructure with
Tim Pamela and Sam.
At 12, we have Sample implementation of Open ID for Verifiable Presentation over Bluetooth
Low Energy.
I would like to apologize to all.
I'm a giant nerd.
I'm very excited about that one just because we have a project that works at Blue BLE
and it's cool.
And lastly, we are going to have folks vangalists and Connor Conners from the European
Commission talking about challenges for wallets and digital trust services, following the
EUDI Wallet Architecture Reference Framework.
You'll hear folks today, probably call the ARF, that's the architecture reference framework.
We just cut three letter acronyms, ARF, everything in the world in this world.
All right, how today is going to run?
I'm going to try to keep my comments to 15, 20 minutes.
This way the next team can come up and get set up and it's nice and even.
We would love it if you could give a 15, 20 minute presentation and leave time for questions.
I have found the presentations are going to be awesome, but the questions actually make
them even better.
So by all means, if we please set aside time at the end of your session to do some Q&A.
Also, if you have a burning question in the session ends and you really want to talk to
that person, take them out into the hallway.
This is a really small room.
The acoustics are pretty good for our classroom, but we're also miked, so we don't want
some cross-talk.
It's going to hurt folks on the stream or in the video recording from later.
And lastly, remember back in the day.
At conference, we take a picture of the whole crowd.
I'm not doing that, and I'm not doing that because I don't want anyone to get facially
recognized by some platform 10 years from now.
Unacceptable.
Not doing that.
I would take a picture from the back, but I can't get back there.
So my name is Sean Bohan.
I work at the Linux Foundation.
I'm the community architect at the Open Wallet Foundation.
The Open Wallet Foundation, I believe we turn two in March or April of this year.
This is not, as I mentioned before, an Open Wallet Foundation room.
This is a Boston room for digital wallets and verifiable credentials.
This is about the ecosystem.
It's not about us.
I am currently lucky and honored to be able to be the devroom manager for this.
I hope to do it again next year.
This is my first Boston.
It's been pretty amazing.
So wallets are essential for digitizing our society.
And they're already in broad use.
Anyone who is, yes, my screen is working.
Anyone who's taken a flight has been offered by the airline.
Hey, do you want your boarding pass sent to your Apple Wallet or your Google Wallet, et cetera?
They're used for payments.
They're used for higher value credentials.
We're seeing a lot of work right now in certain countries around mobile drivers licenses.
And that's really differential.
Like, identities in ecosystem, but what's happening in Europe is very different than what's
happening in Canada is very different than the US or Australia or India, for example.
I get to see all these things, which is pretty cool, but also the differences are what
also make it really cool.
And then wallets are becoming a cornerstone of digital infrastructure in our societies.
I can't say everybody has a phone in their pocket.
We do have a digital divide still.
I started working on the internet 30 years ago.
It still exists.
There are folks who are not connected.
We need to look at ways to support them as well.
And that's something that we consider we keep in the back of our mind.
Not just for people, I have a cousin who will not own a phone.
I will not own a mobile phone.
He has a phone in his house.
He's a great person.
He's just no.
We need to make sure he's able to access all this infrastructure as well as folks who are
on their 6, 7, 3, 5 phone.
There are also numerous use cases, whether it's a refugee use case, whether it's a disaster
use case.
We just had massifiers in California where people literally lost everything down to whatever
paper was in their pocket that they ran out of the house with.
It's all they have left.
How do they restore their identity life?
Digital or otherwise.
So these are not topics that are sort of like, it's never stuff.
This is affecting everybody.
And then digital walls and verifiable credentials.
So it's a pretty, it's a, I just realized I'm blocking the screen and I apologize.
It's a somewhat simple model.
We should not have to go back to the identity issue every time.
We want to show that credential.
But I should not have to have Wi-Fi at the airport to show us.
I might not be in a region with cell service and I need to pull up my mobile driver's license.
All these things are sort of at the core of this and really it's the issuer and the verifier,
but the user is at the center of this equation.
And the user's device or cloud or hybrid of the device and cloud that are making this
transaction work.
And then we're the benefits of verifiable credentials.
How many people here have ever rented an apartment?
OK, how many of you handed over a folder of paperwork that could steal your identity 15
times over to a person who, you know, has the key to the apartment, but you really don't
know if they're the owner of the apartment, but you're pretty sure they had the key.
And I just give this to them and hope they approve my rental.
That was my sort of rabbit hole, my gateway drug into this industry.
As I went and got a new apartment in two months later, I joined an organization that contributed
some software to Linux Foundation.
But verifiable credentials.
So the end user gets more control, more privacy, more portability.
In some identity spaces, I've described this as giving the user, the user is taking, not giving.
The user is taking new superpowers.
With these verifiable credentials, they can create compound proofs, they can do lots of things
with them.
That will give them new abilities, new capabilities, give them more scale in the transactions
and digital life that they have.
It's cheaper, it's faster, it's more secure, after it's depending upon what we're doing.
And while it's transforming physical credentials into digital ones using verifiable credentials
and a universal approach.
Within my team, there are a lot of futures for verifiable credentials and wallets.
One of those futures is one wallets to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them.
Hey, hey, four plump teams here.
One wallets to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them, right?
I don't love that world, I don't love the fact that I have issues porting from Apple
to Android, and I like Android, I have an Android phone at home.
The other way, the other alternative, is every single relationship you have has its own
wallet, and all of them are on a different upgrade schedule.
And every time you really need them, there's no Wi-Fi, and it hasn't updated and you
can't show that credential, that is bad.
Then there's also a middle ground, but some of my colleagues, and I really believe in,
it's going to kind of be like browsers.
You've got a wallet for work, you've got a wallet for home stuff, you've got a wallet for
your healthcare.
I have a browser for work, and I have a browser for home stuff, and I have a browser for
finance, none of them touch.
I have never opened up a work thing on my home browser.
They may be on the same computer, but I don't let those worlds collide or even get in touch
with each other.
There are a lot of different ways to look at this technology and how they're going to work.
And a couple of examples we put in here, the mobile driver's license is, again, as we
said before, it's geographically spread.
In the United States, there are a lot of states, really interested in mobile driver's license.
It's really interested in either getting pulled over, or when you walk into an office building,
bam, show your phone, and you've got an MDL there, it's ready to go.
Welcome.
Thank you.
And also the EU Digital Identity Wallet, also called EUDI, we're going to refer to as EUDI during
today, and also the ARF I mentioned before.
And so who are we, the Open Wall Foundation, we're a neutral home for open source projects
and the communities that build them in the development of interoperable digital wallets.
Interoperable is the most important thing for us if we are building new silos we have
failed.
If these things do not work, crossboard or we have failed.
But there will never be an open wallet wallet.
These are projects that people are building and contributing to and maintaining, and
someone else is taking that code and building a wallet from it for a company, for a government,
for a dog boarding place.
So you can have a QR code that I can give to my neighbor to go get my dog because my
train is like getting back from the Boston.
Those are all real use cases.
Our goal in this is to help these communities build these projects.
And I'll go in a little bit about governance in a second.
And I am absolutely shocked that I'm only eight minutes into this.
I am super impressed by myself.
I'm going to give you a dramatic reading of this.
It's a consortium of companies and nonprofit orgs, collaborating, drive global adoption.
We do not do standards.
Let me refer to that.
We do not do standards.
We do code.
We work with STEOs and standards bodies.
We work with folks working with standards.
We are standards are part of our ecosystem, but we are actually working with the folks who are
building the code.
Secure and interoperable digital wall solutions, as well as providing access and expertise
and advice through a government advisory council.
This slide is already dated.
I will explain why in a second.
Get a hand rest.
Oh, no, sorry.
And we set, we aim to set best practices for digital wall technology through collaboration
on standards based OSS components, open source software.
That issuer's wall providers and relying parties can use to bootstrap implementations
that preserve user choice security and privacy.
I mentioned before, the renting and department idea, all of that could be handled
with verifiable credentials.
I get a credential from my bank saying that I am a customer of the bank.
I get another credential from my bank saying, oh, he's got a balance of X or even better
a zero-knowledge proof that says, here's a predicate.
His balance is more than Y.
That's the world I want.
I don't want anyone to know what my balance is.
But these are things that we can help build.
And then our technical community is 100% open and it's led by diverse group of contributors.
Everything we do is an open source.
All of our code is either Apache 2.
We do have one or two projects using MIT.
For IP concerns, which I am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV.
I'm not going to discuss because I don't have credible opinions here.
We really don't work with GPL at all for IP protection purposes.
But we support the communities that are building this software.
And I'm going to go through a bunch of our projects in a second.
But most important for us is this diverse group of contributors.
Why?
We have seen multiple times in different parts of the Linux Foundation.
Two people have an awesome project and they're building it in great.
But they don't bring anybody else in.
Or they have a hard time finding contributors and other maintainers.
And all of a sudden somebody gets a root canal.
And we have lost a maintainer for a project that other people are depending on.
One of my good friends, Brian Belendor, who's here.
I haven't seen him yet.
I'll see him later.
He's called this permissionless innovation.
Permissionless innovation is awesome because anybody can take this code.
But he can look at it, use it, modify it.
They don't have to tell me.
They never have to tell me.
Which also stinks because I wish I knew when there are cool projects working with our
code and I usually find out after something is long.
That's OK.
I then call those folks and say, hey, can we get you to come and do an AMA or a workshop or
a webinar or something?
But that being said, contributor diversity is critical to these projects.
And we're going to talk about our lifecycle in a second and how we go from labs to growth
to impact projects.
And one of the biggest requirements for graduating those stages is
developer diversity.
Is contributor diversity a maintainer diversity?
If everyone's from one company, cool, except when that company does a lay off.
And the principal engineers and maintainers have to go.
They split, they can't work on the same or the company pivots.
That happens all the time.
Terrible, somewhat funny story.
We had a wonderful community developers from one company, all four of them wrote a quarterly
update.
The quarterly update was like, we got two more maintainers coming.
This is going to be great.
Oh, you guys, you're nailing it.
Six weeks later, one of my colleagues says, you know,
this guy's haven't done a commit in weeks.
All right, send an email, reach out on discord.
Send an issue, won't get hub.
Finally, here back.
Oh, yeah, you know, after we wrote the quarterly update, we were really
psyched about the new maintainers.
We all got re-ordered.
So we're not working on it anymore.
Now, we have people relying on this software.
It's not.
It's somewhat funny, somewhat sad.
Folks are relying on the software and the team developing it is gone.
And how do we avoid that?
We avoid that by having contributed to maintain a diversity.
Bring people from outside your organization, both individuals,
but also companies.
If you're relying on the software, you want to make sure it works.
You want to make sure that it is going and growing in a way that you need.
I call it relying.
Some people say, depending, I love the word relying.
I need this software to work for me in my use case.
I want to be involved in that roadmap.
I want to be involved in contributing that software.
Making sure my voice is heard and that project isn't moved forward.
So what do we do at the Open Wall Foundation, code outreach and ecosystem?
These are the three most important things for me.
Everything else is secondary, tertiary.
I'll get into the code in a second, but outreach.
How do we reach out to folks who are using our software?
My least favorite thing in the world is when I walk into my boss,
and she says, hey, by the way, did you hear the nation of Bhutan
is using Occupy?
And I'm like, no, I didn't have to go find people in Bhutan now,
who are doing this, and, you know, it stinks for me,
but it's awesome for the ecosystem.
But we need, as the Linux Foundation, to be reaching out to folks all the time.
And when someone comes to us and says, hey, we're interested in this project,
how do we get involved?
Half of my job is giving them the on-ramp for it,
and making sure that on-ramp is low as possible, so that their teams,
with that individual, has a great experience.
I'll go into that in a second.
And then most importantly, the ecosystem that's why we're here today,
that is why none of the sessions that they are open
while the foundation sessions of the online, obviously,
because this ecosystem is where the work is going to happen.
And we're absolutely for it, and we absolutely want to see that work.
So our technical, the way our projects are run,
we have a technical advisory council.
This is the leadership team.
These are senior maintainers that lots of very large and small organizations.
We have seats on our tack from impact projects.
I'll go through one of impact projects in a second.
Seats on our tack come from our members, and we have two at-large seats
on the technical advisory council.
They do not tell people what to do.
They do not tell people how to code.
They do not tell people what they should be doing.
We do.
We are prescriptive around things like security.
We are prescriptive around things like a code of conduct
and being good.
Hey, welcome. Come on in.
Grab seat.
Being great to new contributors.
Low, you know, having security policies,
having contribution policies, having good first ticket tags
and get hugged.
Those are all critical to us.
But there's no, like I don't like the way you did that commit.
Like, ah, ah, did you DCS sign off?
We respect you as a maintainer.
We want you to build this project in a way that you need to get a building.
We have project maintainers.
These are the senior contributors on any project.
I mentioned maintainer diversity and contributor diversity
before.
These are the elders on any given project
who are not telling folks what to do, but they are leading.
They're helping new folks and new contributors
get through their first couple of tickets.
Get a couple of bugs fixed.
Hey, you got an idea for a module.
Let's work on that together.
They're reviewing PRs.
They're writing their own PRs.
All of them have a vested interest.
And they rely on the software that they're building for a dozen reasons.
And when we talk about, there was a funding session yesterday,
which I only caught a couple of, of devrims.
And it, uh, a couple of sessions for it.
Like, they may be folks who rely on it because they're consultants who use the software with their clients.
They may rely on it because their company has basically hired them
to build this open source product
that their companies either using or relying on or selling to others.
And then we have project stages, um, labs growth and impact.
Labs, I made a joke before about two cool people.
Decide they have some code.
They want to make a project.
They don't know if they have traction, but they have working code.
Let's start a lab.
Let's see if we can build a momentum around this project.
Let's see if we can bring in contributors from outside.
Part of my job is when someone says, hey, do you have something that does X1s?
And look, well, you should talk to this lab.
They're not production ready in production software.
They're learning, they're growing, they're building a community.
Welcome, join us.
They're building a community.
The next stage, but to get to the growth stage,
more mature, more POCs and pilots, in production some places.
They need maintainer and developer diversity.
They have other requirements they have to fill.
I'm not going to go into detail here.
It's all on our websites.
But that growth, that graduation is a process.
The attack is involved in reviewing the application
to graduate, making sure that they're meeting the standards
that we've set as a community to become a growth project.
And then lastly is, is impact.
These are senior projects in the market, in production,
being used right now.
In some cases, velocity is slow to little bit.
They've gone from build build build to maintain build, maintain build,
maintain build, but they're still, hey, welcome.
Open source projects that are getting it done.
And also, we look at them as senior members of the community.
So I'll go through occupying the second.
It's one of our senior teams.
Hey, welcome.
One of our senior teams.
They've got to see it on the attack because they're an impact project.
I expect all of you to be able to read this slide.
And that's what makes it fun.
These slides are going to be on the Boston website.
There is a QR code there.
I checked it again this morning to make sure it doesn't go to Facebook
or somewhere silly.
This is going right to our tax site with all of our projects.
But really quickly, at the top, we've got occupied.
It's secure interoperable communication between the identities.
This is one of our senior most walled projects currently being used
by a number of different companies and governments around the world.
There's an organization in India.
We have occupied came from the Aries community at Hyperledger.
Occupy, Cretto, Bifold, Asgard, Al, and Didcom mediator service all came from Aries.
And as a series of communities inside of Hyperledger,
they decided the better place for them is the open wall foundation.
We welcome them with open arms.
There was no weirdness.
I had one maintainer say to me, you guys met us?
Like, absolutely not.
And we support you.
We want you to go where you feel you're going to get the most value in use.
And get more exposure.
Cretto, which is being built by a team of newtract,
currently is being worked on with both the Sprint Funky competition for digital wallets,
as well as it's in progress right now with the Republic of Ireland's EUDI wallet initiative.
So they're working with those two teams in a company called near-form in Ireland.
Bifold is in full development and is being used by the government of British Columbia
and in the Penn Canadian Trust Framework, which are two different projects,
but they're talking to each other all the time.
Asgard, Asgard is within the Aries wallet environment and ecosystem,
Asgard is the storage layer.
That's where the keys are being held.
Then you got Didcom mediator service, and Al is called Al,
because they like the name Al.
They wanted to call it open wallet labs.
And I'm like, open wallet of something else.
Like you can't do that, so we'll just call it Al.
That is a test harness for Aries wallets.
We are expanding that, which we're pretty excited about, not to just be Aries wallets,
but to work on other wallets outside of Aries community.
We have a lot of projects I'll go through.
And then we got SD.java script, which I believe is working on an EUDI wallet initiative.
Identity credentials, identity credential, which is now being called multi-pause,
was contributed by Google.
It's part of the Sprint Funky competition as well.
It's being used in the EUDI wallet testing initiative.
To volley, which is a lab, and VCAPI, also a lab.
To volley is actually, I believe, being used in Africa.
VCAPI is an implementation of VCAPI draft standard.
Actually, a fantastic maintainer who's trying to build.
And then we got more lab projects.
I'm not going through all these, but they cover everything from Python,
Kotlin.net, Rust, React Native.
We have TrustBanding Protocol.
We've got, you'll take a look at our list of projects.
You'll see most in the right entity.
We have one, which is sort of looking in the cryptocurrency space.
The reality is, all identity problems are key management problems.
Not that there's no difference between a cryptocurrency key and an identity key.
There's lots of them, but effectively, that's a really good way to think about it,
as far as we're concerned.
And also, we added three new labs at the bottom.
DC Decal, DCQL, TypeScript, OpenID for VCAIs, TypeScript, and OpenID Federation TypeScript.
These came out of the Credo community.
So that community, Credo, building their own wallet, implementing it in lots of different places.
They were building their own tools.
They turned around and said, let's give this back to the community.
One of my favorite things that happened at OpenWall Foundation,
when those projects moved over from Hyperledger,
which is now the Linux Foundation Essentialized Trust,
was they had a working group.
And every week, they met and talked about the stuff going on in areas.
And they're like, can we bring our working group to OpenWallet?
And our only request was opening it up to everybody.
So right now, that interoperability working group,
yep, it's very, very eccentric.
I've got folks from IronWorks who are working with the nation of Bhutan.
Coming to that meeting to talk about making things more interoperable,
helping to contribute to more did-com modules.
It's the kind of thing we want to see.
We're working with the whole community, let folks know.
Not just that this meeting exists, because everybody has a full schedule.
Every single person has a full day,
but getting the projects to at least send a representative to these calls,
so that they can have their voice heard.
We don't want anyone left out.
And I don't want anyone left out because they were too busy,
or a project had too much going on.
Like, we want to make sure we're being as welcoming as possible.
And then lastly, oh, not lastly.
But the OpenWallet's forum.
I've got 10 minutes left, and I'm going to fly through these two slides.
I mentioned before, outreach and engagement.
Some of the feedback we got from a project a couple of years ago
was we need better, this is an open-source project.
We need better product marketing, which is really hard,
particularly for an open-source project.
Because in some cases, I'm going to take your code,
and I'm going to run with it, and I'm not telling anyone.
I don't have to tell anyone.
And I'm building it inside my very large organization,
and we're not talking about it.
That's not messed up.
That's open-source.
I can't help that, but we want to get the word out
when there are great implementations
and people testing and playing with this code,
because that's going to inspire someone else.
The second thing we heard was we need more government engagement.
And one of the reasons why I love the OpenWallet Foundation is we
started with the Government Advisory Council.
We've now created the OpenWallet Forum,
but it's an joint organization with the UN's
International Telecommunications Union,
engaging government folks and standards development
organizations and technologists.
One of the things we saw was Estios.
We're not talking folks were either not listening to Estios,
or Estios weren't in the conversation,
or technologists and governments were talking,
but the Estios were over there,
and we just kind of get everybody together and work this stuff out.
And so it's starting with working groups and public meetings
to collaborate on digital trust and global interrupt.
So, lastly, it's an ECO system.
We're here. We're at Boston, because we believe in the ECO system.
If we were only doing OpenWallet Foundation projects eight,
no one else would care and be,
we would miss out on all the cool stuff that's happening in this space.
But a couple of things to pay attention to.
We do OpenWallet Foundation meetings,
AMAs and Meetups.
We've done AMAs with OpenID Connect.
We've done AMAs with the EUDI Wallet Initiative.
Those are not open-wallet projects,
but we believe it's important for our communities
to see what these folks are doing.
W3C is where I started out
within the identity space.
It was working on basically dids
for a company called Evername, which contributed some products
to the Linux Foundation.
W3C, we're engaging constantly.
We're going to go to some of their events.
They're coming to some of ours.
Feed days, which used to be Dutch blockchain coalition.
We're doing some events with them.
If you're in Europe,
DICE digital identity,
Unconference Europe, is happening the first week of March.
It's a great event.
It's put on by the same folks.
They do Internet Identity Workshop,
which I mentioned two bullets above.
IW is awesome.
I've been going for years.
Great event to go to.
And then we're here at Boston.
We hope this is our first.
Well, this is our first.
We hope this is not our last.
We're going to be coming back every year.
We think this community is that important,
but also we need the feedback from folks in this room
and folks outside of this room to make our own work better.
And then, get involved.
Look at another QR code.
Look at me.
Basically, this goes to our participation page.
I'll share the open-wall foundation you were on the second.
We have a community calendar.
It lists all of our meetings.
We have a discord.
I know I put the mailing list up there.
I'm the only person who uses the mailing list.
It's broken my heart over the years
that no one uses mailing list anymore.
When I worked at Mozilla, I got yelled at because I was like,
everything goes on the list.
Yeah, but I want to have a meeting.
Put on the list.
All right, I'll put on the list.
I miss mailing list.
That's fine.
And both of our get-hubs.
We have a separate get-hub for our growth and impact projects
and another get-hub for labs.
That's just how we organized it.
We have get-hub enterprise, and that's how we did it.
And now, with six minutes left, sorry,
a broken and rule of having less ten minutes, any questions?
How dare you?
No, no clapping.
Put that out.
You clap for everybody else.
You'll clap for me.
Any questions?
Wait, are you going to clap for no questions?
Come on.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
So, one of the things I wanted to say yesterday,
you speak against some really great suggestions for books,
resources, anything that you would recommend.
From your experience, it's a good way to get up to speed rule,
and stuff like this.
Okay, this is going to be recorded,
and I will write it down after the session.
Germany and Phil Winley, he used to be the Chief Technology Officer,
the State of Utah, he's a professor.
One of my favorite people in the world,
he's also one of the founders of Internet Identity Workshop.
He's been working in this space for literal decades.
Phil has written two books about digital identity.
I believe with a Riley, and they're kind of like,
I still open them up and check on something Phil said,
years ago, in a previous version of one of his books.
He's one of my favorites.
There is a newsletter, and I'm going to probably mess this up,
Identisphere, which is put on by a person named DataMiner,
and by Khalia, who's known as Identity Woman.
It is a male, it is an email newsletter, I open up every week.
It is from all over the industry, it is critical of some things.
It is celebrating other things.
It's calling out, like, hey, there's an event happening over here.
Somebody over here needs help with something.
It is literally sort of the pulse of,
I'm not going to say just the open source part of Identity,
because they cover everything.
But they are definitely on the front of,
if something's happening, I usually find out about it there,
unless my boss has called me and said, hey,
do you hear about Pluton?
Those are my two number one go-tos.
I'll see if I can think of a couple of others.
If you get a chance, go to dice, if you get a chance,
go to, I mean, IWs in California, in April, and October every year.
But if you ever get a chance, go to those, they're great.
Anyone else? Yes.
The projects that are in, like, growth, labs, growth, and impact.
Yes.
Is there a sort of stable, monochrophane of those?
I mean, as in, we reach the stable,
I would generally say, you can have stable code bases in growth,
but they have not met all the criteria to move up to impact.
So we have two, could go ahead.
Yes, so impact is the most stable, most mature of them.
It doesn't mean growth is immature.
It means it's being used, but I'll give you an example.
Credo, the team working with the Republic of Ireland,
they said in their annual review, like, hey, we're getting ready to apply,
in this year, 2025, we're getting ready to apply for impact.
Now, there are things they have to do.
And they're going through the checklist to make sure they've met all those criteria.
Anyone else, any other questions?
All right. Next up, we've got utilizing UDI walletico systems
in your legacy systems with the net company team.
If I could get you to come on up, and thank you, everyone, for joining us.