Good morning.
Good morning. Good morning.
Thomas Tristanson from that company.
Very happy to be here.
We want to do a session that may be a little different.
Of course, we will do some technical stuff here,
but I want to start maybe talking a little bit about the business side
of the wallet because I think it's not being spoken about quite enough.
So I'm going to jump into it.
So I'm going to do a quick introduction of who we are,
and then talk a little bit about how we see the world,
and then I'll throw it to Michael, who will dive into the more technical part of
how do we actually see some of these ecosystems work,
especially with the amount of legacy that we are working with out there.
So the company is a 25 year young company.
I grew out of a small startup today about 8,000 people,
primarily operating in the northern part of Europe,
but one of the things that makes us maybe a little interesting
is we are one of the biggest ITC companies here in the EU,
providing services to the EU institutions.
And amongst others, we are together with the Commission,
Development, the ARF, as well as I now know we call it,
for the EU, the I wallet.
So we have worked closely with the Commission here for a number of years,
trying to hit it, and obviously we work with the large scale pilots,
and so we are pretty engaged in this.
Now one of the things that we are seeing is,
I understand the value of having a driver's license.
I've had it for close to 10 years, and my health card.
It does not revolutionize the world.
I'm sorry guys, it doesn't.
So if we're going to really drive value out of the wallet,
we've got to think broader.
We've got to think in these industries.
We've got to think at how we tie together industries.
How can we use wallet certificates across the way we operate
in business as well as our private lives?
So this is what we really spend a lot of time doing.
There will be plenty of people developing wallets.
But I don't think there will be that many people developing
the infrastructure to basically enable these ecosystems to function
and function quick and be adaptable.
So that's what we're really working on.
And that's what Michael is going to say a lot more about.
Now we have obviously done a lot around public sector
and how we help citizen.
So Denmark is one of the most digitized countries in the world.
I think we're a number one measured on the UN,
and we are very digitized.
We've had ID for many, many years.
And an ID that is used both by the private and the public sector.
So we use one ID for everything.
And when I go in and look how often do we use it,
just in our digital communication.
On an average, a day in user ID 17 times a month
logging in, checking their digital communication
with government, with banking insurance.
So we can see how these ecosystems really start working
once you start having these standard ways of using these different things.
So some of that has really inspired us.
We've done the corona pass.
We've done a lot of application that is related to the one.
So we see how this works.
And that's where we see this is going to make a huge difference.
So we work with education.
We work with transport.
We work with banking.
And this is where we see really accelerator for this.
So you will hear Michael talk more about how do we get in
and basically enable these type of applications in different industries.
With that, I'll throw it to Michael.
Thank you.
You're going to get this one here.
We'll do a Michael.
Mike Schwop.
Great.
So my name is Michael.
And I will be talking about the ecosystems that we just heard
a little bit about.
Sorry.
As Thomas mentioned, we are a net company.
And we are working on the toolbox for the EU Commission.
The toolbox for the EU-DI wallet.
This toolbox is meant to help organizations, communities,
industries to hook in to the EU-DI wallet ecosystems
when it is being implemented.
We are, that is one part of the task.
Another part is us, the company as a business,
reaching out to countries, organizations.
And this is both the private and public sector.
We are working with them, regarding the EU-DI wallet.
The EU-DI has two.
We will be a reality soon.
How are you going to be compliant with it?
How are you going to be taking advantage of the EU-DI wallet
as an infrastructure in your own country?
They all countries have their own ecosystems now.
They are at different matured levels, of course.
And they are done quite a lot of investments in these infrastructure
and ecosystem.
They are not willing to throw that away.
So they need to figure out how do we create the synergy effects
with what we have, what we have to throw away,
and how can we take advantage of the wallet
as an enabler in our future digitization?
So we have spent quite a lot of time
traveling around, talking with these organizations,
and understanding the challenges,
opportunities, etc.
What's really interesting about EIDS2,
and the EU-DI wallet, if you don't know,
the EU-DI wallet is part of the EIDS2,
is that it invites the collaboration between public and private sector.
So as Thomas mentioned,
this is very natural in Denmark.
It's been done for many years.
It's very easy for citizens when they have one way to do things,
regardless if it's in your communication,
and your flows, use of flows with the public sector,
or the private sector.
So banking and pension,
usually industries with a high level of compliance requirements.
This session is about how can we
who gains to these EIDS2 ecosystems.
So with an emphasis on legacy systems.
So when I say legacy systems, what do we mean about that?
I mean all the systems that has probably served
a lot of most of its value already.
It is now a critical part of an organization's business processes.
Not something that you can remove,
but they also usually come with the cost of a high friction
when they want to change business flows, business processes.
And that in some cases hurts these businesses,
but has a hard time finding their way out of it.
It's part of some of the deliveries of projects that we do,
is helping organizations coming out of a legacy system
or doing a legacy transformation.
One of the challenges we see is,
and we can see regarding specifically for the EIDI wallet,
is a lot of the open source communities focus very much
on the current technologies, the current languages.
Also because the standards are written for this,
but that makes it hard for to embrace these new technologies
when you have an old system built 30 years ago.
And you need a tool to help you come across these challenges.
And we'll get back to that in a second.
These older systems are usually not very user process,
specifically very much transaction based on financial transaction,
etc.
Something you have a abstraction way from the user,
while a distributed architecture like the wallet,
you have the user in the flows.
So they are looking at, you have a challenge here
from a technical perspective of how do you move these business
process to the user, the citizen, or the customer,
depending on your user group.
But looking at the benefits of using this,
of embracing the wallet,
is that you get a much better understanding of your business process.
You get a much better understanding of your data.
And you also have a very,
the last point here is you have an opportunity
to have an easier way of getting compliant,
like GDPR for instance.
All our systems, the data they have of citizens or customers,
for instance in a bank, is probably,
a lot of it is in unstructured data.
When I say unstructured data, it could be a document,
like a letter, a contract.
And the data, the sensitive data,
it could be just text in that document.
It's very hard to be compliant,
because you have a hard time as an organization,
knowing what data do I have sensitive data of this person.
If that person requests to get this data deleted,
what documents do I have to delete?
When you're going on using more structure,
like theifiable credentials, where you have specific attributes
with the sensitive data,
it can become an easier task to be compliant.
So I'll give an example.
A couple of three or four years ago,
I was involved in a large legacy transformation program in Denmark.
This was a system that was responsible for paying out salary
to about a million people.
This was for a public sector organization.
So one of the issues where it was a very old system.
And it was a mainframe system written mostly in Cobalt Code.
It's okay because you can still find a lot of people
who know this language, that's good.
But the rules for the salary was written in a completely
preparatory language.
And very few people knew about this.
It took five years to master.
And the youngest person was 58 years old.
And you know, like...
Yeah.
And every time legislation changes,
or unions, they change the salary
and rules and the options.
And this happened all the time.
They needed these people to implement these rules into the system
to be able to pay out salary.
And if you don't pay out salary,
people are going to be angry, very quickly.
So it was a very hard time for...
They could see, okay, we are on a burning platform.
We need to get this modernized.
But the modernization had been extended over years.
It was a public system.
So it needs to go out and tendering, of course.
But they didn't know what the system could do.
The documentation state was very bad.
So it had been postponed for a number of years.
And that had prevented the modernization of this system.
So what had to be done is,
was we have to map all the processes.
We have to map all the functionality.
Get it documented so that we can transition it.
So this is what I'm trying to illustrate here.
In a more generic way,
there can be many reasons why I want to...
To sunset your legacy systems.
Some of it is you want to not be on a burning platform.
Other times you just want to be more flexible
and more agile in your building solutions.
But you do it in...
If you map out the functionality,
you can also transition this iteratively.
And that becomes a data governance task.
So one of the things that we did regarding this salary payout system,
were, okay, let's look at this on a complete data specific perspective.
What comes in?
And what comes out?
In this case, some reports on how much time people have spent on what task came in.
And in the end, there were some transactions on payouts.
How much should each individual have?
That's a very easy way of seeing, okay, just look at it as a black box.
When the new system goes online,
we can verify that it works exactly like the old system
by looking at what comes in and what goes out.
This would be identical.
And from then on, you can break it down to even smaller bits.
And these bits are the red ones here.
It could be business processes, it could be a data perspective,
specifically.
When you have these maps, this map put out.
That you have a good idea of what the system should be able to do.
You also have a good perspective on how to change the system to accommodate new requirements for the business processes.
But what has this to do with wallet?
Now, these small bits and this data perspective,
these processes is what can enable organizations to create innovation.
And the wallet to embrace the potential that is in the EUDI wallet.
It's a common framework of exchanging contextual rich data.
That's a data governance task in its essence.
So of course, there are some technical bits.
How do we exchange this?
But industries, countries across countries within countries.
They need to figure out what kind of data models.
What are the schemas?
How do we need what is necessary to exchange?
And when you have that and you have a common understanding,
you can take advantage of this infrastructure and exchange in data.
This slide here, and I can see I'm a little bit behind schedule,
but it shows what the EUDI wallet can become.
It can become an infrastructure where citizens carry their data in a common way across all of Europe.
It can help businesses exchange data with citizens,
but also it can help these businesses.
And when I say business, just both public and private sex, of course.
These organizations, they no longer need to have expensive integrations with centralized infrastructure.
So in Denmark, if I want to have a loan in the bank, I go to the bank.
They ask me for consent that they will fetch data from the taxation authorities to figure out how much did I own last year,
so that they can give me an offer for a loan for the car I want.
This integrations is expensive.
They have to build it, they also have to maintain it.
Now I could just come with my taxation ticket issued by the taxation authorities.
And then I say, this is what I earned last year or the last three months.
And they can verify this.
So this is the contextual data.
It's something where people can come with different issued credentials.
And this can become a profile for that person that they can handle or to a organization.
And say, hey, give me your best offer.
You have all the information you need.
And I know exactly what I have shared with you.
So it's very much transparent.
But one of the challenges going back to the legacy system
is these existing systems over here.
They are maybe rather hard to change.
They take a long time to change to support these new processes.
As I just mentioned, this pay off system.
So what we after talks with different authorities and companies,
putting in a component that knows about the UDI protocols or other wallets for that matter,
and building a technology that is very flexible in its way to integrate with different systems,
using different protocols, fetching data from different registries.
And then being able to use that data to issue credentials that is complying with the data models
that has been agreed across industries or countries.
I will skip this one.
This is just looking a bit deeper into this wallet,
I've called it in this slide, but creating flows that use as the UDI wallet,
but uses it in processes that exist or with data sources outside their own organizations.
This is what can help build the flexibility needed to support the processes.
This is just an perspective of showing, okay, if you don't have this,
well, you're going to have to build a support for these protocols in all your systems that is relevant for the UDI ecosystem.
That's going to be expensive, also to maintain over time.
Some of them are all systems.
That's going to be very expensive.
Some of them might be new, that is probably not a very large sustain.
You can, if you, if you, the third part here, if you have this component, a broker or connector or whatever you call it,
this is where you can define your business processes.
And you, you build your flows, close to the business process,
not your systems, which might be 25 years old.
You can also, which we, we, you mentioned before, you could also build some business logic specifically for you,
maybe the industry or that organization into the wallet,
but then you have a wallet to maintain as an organization.
That's going to be a high cost for many, for many organizations.
Communities could lower that friction, of course,
but it will also reduce the benefits of having a standard way of communicating,
using DEI as two.
One of the, the benefits of the EODI wallet is,
you can, you can use your Belgian wallet in Denmark, right,
with these systems in Denmark, because they know how to communicate.
And that was my primary point, is that the wallet,
when you, of mapping out processes, mapping out the data,
it's kind of the same task you're going to,
we are used to do when you, legacy transformation,
the same applies to when when organizations need to,
who get into the EODI as two ecosystems.
And when you have that, you can use this as a transitioning tool,
and then enable of when you're modernizing your, your systems.
Yes?
Thank you.
If anyone has a question, please raise your hand.
If I get asked for a speaker, is when someone does ask a question,
if you could repeat it in the mic,
if we get it the recording of the awesome, I didn't do that.
So, thanks.
Maybe I have a question for the next company, too.
Yeah.
Yeah, so, yes.
Question.
Yeah, yeah, I'm trying.
Yeah.
So, is there any open source implementations of the EODI wallet?
Yeah.
So, the toolbox that we're building is open source,
so it's all on GitHub.
We can send out some links afterwards.
Yeah.
Yeah?
The broker you mentioned is that something generic,
that you can be used as multiple organizations,
to use the same system or do I have to build a broker in my organization,
to use my specific needs?
Yeah.
And then you'll go to different broker for your specific needs.
Yeah.
So, this broker here, is that a generic one that anyone can take,
and reuse right now,
that we can see in the market that this is not,
we are not the only ones who came up with this concept.
Of course, so there will be commercial partners trying to,
that will offer a broker that you can use to,
let's say, bootstrap this pattern into your system.
Yes.
And it's also something that we are looking into,
how can we use a generic broker with the minimum of functionality
that is coming across countries, organizations, industry, etc.
Yeah.
Yeah?
Yes.
So, you are asking why would then my implement this,
since we already have the ID, we have also driver's license
and health cards, etc.
In what it's, one of the reasons is they have to.
So, we have the ID, we have also drivers license
and health cards, etc.
In what it's, one of the reasons is they have to,
so the ID has two states that in November, 26,
so in one and a half year, all countries in the EU have to supply
at least one wallet.
It needs to be out in November, 26, so in one and a half year,
and the year after there's some legislation in regards,
then you need to be able to support using the credentials in it.
Yes?
So, and that's where I think it's critical for the users to drive
adoption for the users.
We'll be to see some value in it.
And that's where the context, that they are contextual driven,
contextual carrying days.
That's where users, citizens, customers.
And that's where they are contextual driven, contextual carrying days.
That's where users, citizens, customers.
They can use these credentials in other flows than they can today.
Today, it's mostly, we have the drivers license,
which is one example, of course.
But this can become a standard that can accelerate
not only authorities to use a very limited number of credentials,
but enabling industries to say, hey, this is something that you can use
and take advantage of.
Now you can issue your tickets to the concerts in this format
and you, every citizen has this in their pocket.
So, but it requires the industries to take advantage of it, of course.
Yeah?
Yes.
In the last slide, you mentioned how embedding logic,
more in the water making the wallets, yeah, more complex.
Yeah.
Of course, as it's focused, it doesn't that be way forward to
instead of just having your wallets, but they still actually give it all the power
you can see to, is zero knowledge to boost them,
you can do all those very tools, but then we'll all require a lot of
more complex Walletary.
Yeah?
Yeah.
You're asking, regarding the middle version here,
that I'm, so, who is going to embrace this?
This country, who will use this pattern and then use a, let's call it a
Vanilla, EUDI Walletary.
There's no model that will be the only tools.
Some cases, this will be the way forward.
The middle one will be way forward for a, let's say, an industry
and an organization, an organization, because you want
specific business logic tied into your wallet.
But, look at it from the citizen's perspective.
You, you really don't want 70 different wallets, right?
You, you, and you, it might not be realistic to have one wallets
to rule them all, but there's some middle ground somewhere,
and for many organizations, they, they, they won't have that business
centralized in the wallet, but they, they can take advantage of the ecosystem
in their systems, and that's when they just, just hooking into a wallet
is value valuable for them, but not enough that they want to invest in a,
in a, in a specific wallet.
And I think, my, when we look at, my, but when we look at like businesses,
we look at industries.
If you have in countries specific business wallets for,
it could be the business authorities.
When you start doing cross-border, it creates all kinds of problems
when you're entering, and you have to have their wallet to do business in that country.
So there's a lot of, you know, I think,
pains in having it in a, the logic in the wallet.
You risk closing off the ecosystem, right?
That, that's a risk, depending on how you're doing it.
Don't be risk.
Just missing the, very, because of course,
that's just way more flexible and you can do the really, really things
of the people actually.
Because now if you ask the common people on the streets,
doing using this to wallet, they will just say,
why I'd bring out the view on saying, you know,
it does all I do, but it does all I want to do,
but the reading, who applications are between,
both linking them by,
up thing for the third option.
The less flexible one, the one that will,
not going to be able to speak to the new platform,
because, you know, it's not as well as the flexible solution.
Yes.
I can try and repeat what you just said for the,
the audience online, but yeah, yeah.
So, I think I'll repeat a bit myself.
It does not one model that will, that will be the only model,
but for many organizations,
just being able to hook into the ecosystem when I say that,
that is both for, as a relying party,
verify credentials, but also issuing credentials.
It's enough to use the standard flows,
using whatever wallet the user has.
Right?
In some cases, maybe a custom wallet is,
offering that is part of the offering for that organization,
like a bank, for instance.
And it, where building in a custom logic is added value
to that customer experience,
but those that will be very large organizations,
I think that will be able to,
to support an application like this,
and in specific industries,
most of them just needs to be able to issue an access station.
Yeah?
Sorry, it's interesting.
It's easy to really show that if you want to introduce some logic
in your wallet, that's each hand, each organization needs to create
an old wallet.
Can we not have a standardized wallet,
that can support some kind of logic,
for example, zero knowledge proof,
which I know there will be a presentation about later,
and can we not have standardized wallet,
so it's user-friendly,
and valid brokers for legacy organizations,
and then you organization through projects
can use more complex wallet features.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, I agree.
We are going to see,
a hype does nothing in the, yeah,
as to the stage, you cannot do anything.
It's staged.
This is the minimal requirements for wallet.
You need to be compliant with this.
You can add whatever functionality is required,
and I think in reality,
we're going to see a number of wallets
that has custom logic within that offering,
but looking at the volume of transactions.
Most of them, I think,
will be vanilla, AI-2, compliant flows.
I'd like to thank Thomas and Michael,
so much.
This is a great session.
Also, don't forget data portability.
We don't want to be locked into anyone's wallet.
We want to be able to take our toys to other walls.
Do more for us or Thomas problems.
But thank you, Nick company.
Thank you both.
Thank you.